Yesterday the IDF intercepted a Palestinian with a deadly cargo. It was at a checkpoint near Nablus. Naturally, since nobody was killed in this foiled attack, it will not "count" and the PA-side of the current calm will be preserved. Naturally.
The article also points out that an indictment was filed against a Rami Abu Dia, who described his plan to smuggle in a knife and then stab his "victim" from behind. The article did not say who his target was, simply that he was caught inside Israel before it could happen.
Sunday, January 31, 2010
The Empty Threat of Demanding Rights
A new trend that I have noticed among the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel crowd (which is very different from the just pro-Palestinian crowd, I might add) is the following threat. I most commonly see it from people like hemara, but others use it as well. Here it is in a condensed form:
"The Palestinians should appeal to the UN for it to recognize them as citizens of Israel and entitled to all the rights that Israelis get. One state for all, one vote one man, etc. In other words, they should stop demanding statehood from Israel and start demanding their rights."
This is considered by those who proclaim it to be the ultimate threat: If this happens, Israel will have to accept the "one-state solution" (and the national suicide it entails) or face international sanction for their refusal to grant the Palestinians their "human rights." And the scariest of all: The Palestinians could make this demand at any time, so Israel had better shape up or they will be forced into that terrible double-bind. Bwa ha ha ha!
Unfortunately for them, this plan doesn't translate well into the real world. Although I don't blame them for assuming such, The UN isn't going to blindly follow the Palestinians by the nose. The Arab nations do support the Palestinians, and so does everyone else...but only as long as the Palestinian demands remain reasonable. They even had trouble getting the UN to endorse the Goldstone Report. The reality is that the Palestinians have supporters beyond the Arabs, supporters they can't afford to disenchant.
And disenchant them they will, because making this change will completely reverse everything the Palestinians have been saying for years. They told the world that they just wanted an end to the occupation and to form their own state. That is a reasonable demand, and so pretty much the entire world got beyond them on that, even Israel and the USA. To take a more cynical approach: They have justified their seemingly endless violence and refusal to negotiate in pursuit of this goal. They are now married to it.
But then say this projected scenario happens: The Palestinians go in front of the world and say, "Guess what? You know when we were saying all those years that we just want a state? Well, we changed our minds. We really just want to be part of Israel, whether Israel wants us or not. Now who's with us?" They will have betrayed their closest supporters, who truly believed in the righteousness of their motives, and lied to everyone else! So all those people they killed (on both sides) in pursuit of that "cause" of statehood have now died for absolutely nothing.
Doing this will ensure that the Palestinians will lose popular support from everyone except their most die-hard supporters and of course, those who just want Israel destroyed. Let's not forget their own people too: The Palestinian people have been forging a nationhood quite literally from scratch for decades, do proponents of this plan really think they are just going to forget about it?
The reality is that this hypothetical demand is nothing more or less than a demand to destroy Israel, and in the process going back on everything the Palestinians have said for decades. It would be disastrous for the Palestinian leadership if they asked for this. For their sake, and the sake of the peace process, I hope they don't listen to the Huffington Posters who call for this.
"The Palestinians should appeal to the UN for it to recognize them as citizens of Israel and entitled to all the rights that Israelis get. One state for all, one vote one man, etc. In other words, they should stop demanding statehood from Israel and start demanding their rights."
This is considered by those who proclaim it to be the ultimate threat: If this happens, Israel will have to accept the "one-state solution" (and the national suicide it entails) or face international sanction for their refusal to grant the Palestinians their "human rights." And the scariest of all: The Palestinians could make this demand at any time, so Israel had better shape up or they will be forced into that terrible double-bind. Bwa ha ha ha!
Unfortunately for them, this plan doesn't translate well into the real world. Although I don't blame them for assuming such, The UN isn't going to blindly follow the Palestinians by the nose. The Arab nations do support the Palestinians, and so does everyone else...but only as long as the Palestinian demands remain reasonable. They even had trouble getting the UN to endorse the Goldstone Report. The reality is that the Palestinians have supporters beyond the Arabs, supporters they can't afford to disenchant.
And disenchant them they will, because making this change will completely reverse everything the Palestinians have been saying for years. They told the world that they just wanted an end to the occupation and to form their own state. That is a reasonable demand, and so pretty much the entire world got beyond them on that, even Israel and the USA. To take a more cynical approach: They have justified their seemingly endless violence and refusal to negotiate in pursuit of this goal. They are now married to it.
But then say this projected scenario happens: The Palestinians go in front of the world and say, "Guess what? You know when we were saying all those years that we just want a state? Well, we changed our minds. We really just want to be part of Israel, whether Israel wants us or not. Now who's with us?" They will have betrayed their closest supporters, who truly believed in the righteousness of their motives, and lied to everyone else! So all those people they killed (on both sides) in pursuit of that "cause" of statehood have now died for absolutely nothing.
Doing this will ensure that the Palestinians will lose popular support from everyone except their most die-hard supporters and of course, those who just want Israel destroyed. Let's not forget their own people too: The Palestinian people have been forging a nationhood quite literally from scratch for decades, do proponents of this plan really think they are just going to forget about it?
The reality is that this hypothetical demand is nothing more or less than a demand to destroy Israel, and in the process going back on everything the Palestinians have said for decades. It would be disastrous for the Palestinian leadership if they asked for this. For their sake, and the sake of the peace process, I hope they don't listen to the Huffington Posters who call for this.
What's Wrong With Comparing Israel to the Nazis?
In a recent thread, some of the HPers have been questioning the idea that comparing Israel to the Nazis is automatically anti-Semitic (as outlined in the EU definition of anti-Semitism), and crying censorship when their comparisons are criticized. I see their point, they are technically allowed to say whatever they want, even when their words are extremely hurtful. However, I also believe there is some genuine confusion about why certain comparisons to the Nazis are anti-Semitic.
The particular comparison we were talking about in the thread was the comparison of Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto, in which the Israelis are the Germans and the Palestinians are the Jews. We could talk about why this comparison is disingenuous, but it is certainly true that there are certain similarities between Gaza and the ghetto. However, accuracy in comparisons is not what makes Israeli-Nazi comparisons so hurtful.
There's a reason why the Nazis are pretty much universally hated around the world and there's such a thing as "Godwin's Law". That reason is that the Nazis committed genocide on a massive scale, systemically and cold-bloodedly exterminating people on a racial basis. When you compare someone to a Nazi, you are comparing them to a genocidal killer, that is the intention. You are (explicitly or implicitly) comparing their behavior to that of a genocidal killer's, making them to be similar to one of the worst groups of people in history.
Such comparisions, therefore, need to be made with care. Godwin's Law exists because making superfluous comparisons to the Nazis is a low debating tactic, but it also intentionally or unintentionally makes your opponent's argument far worse than it actually is (unless your opponent's argument is that genocide is a good idea). The Nazis have done lots of things that other people do all the time, from ridiculously mundane things like driving Volkswagens to morally questionable things like fighting in urban environments. But, in my opinion, comparing another group of people to the Nazis for any other reason besides crimes against humanity is a terrible idea, because it opens the floodgates to more and more tenuous comparisons:
Israel keeps the Gazans' blockaded, just like the Nazis did! The Palestinians have anti-Semitic newspapers and TV shows, just like the Nazis did! The United States invaded another country, just like the Nazis did! Great Britain uses bombers in war, just like the Nazis did! President Obama was democratically elected, just like Hitler was!
After a while, you can compare pretty much anyone or anything to the Nazis, just having a more and more tenuous connection (John Kerry is white, just like the Nazis were!), but then the comparison becomes meaningless. That is why I am making an appeal: reserve Nazi comparisons for those who do what the Nazis are famous for: committing genocide on a massive scale. If you think Israel is committing genocide on a massive scale, that's your opinion and we can discuss/argue about it. But making Nazi comparisons for reasons other than that are misleading and dishonest.
Now, for comparing Israel in particular to the Nazis being anti-Semitic, this is just because the Nazis specifically targeted the Jews (among others). It's tantamount to telling a black person they are acting like a slave owner. Everyone does not want to be like a Nazi or a slave owner, but it hurts especially more when a Jew or a black person is called those things, because of the specific history (and oftentimes when people compare Israel to the Nazis, they know this and do it intentionally).
Now, I have a little bit of a problem that simply writing off all comparisons of Israel to the Nazis is anti-Semitic. If Israel was in fact committing genocide and marching the Palestinians into death camps, I would the first to state their behavior is similar if not identical to the Nazis. But any comparisons beyond that I'm willing to argue are, for the reasons outlined above.
Do you disagree with another of these points? Leave a comment below and we'll discuss it.
The particular comparison we were talking about in the thread was the comparison of Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto, in which the Israelis are the Germans and the Palestinians are the Jews. We could talk about why this comparison is disingenuous, but it is certainly true that there are certain similarities between Gaza and the ghetto. However, accuracy in comparisons is not what makes Israeli-Nazi comparisons so hurtful.
There's a reason why the Nazis are pretty much universally hated around the world and there's such a thing as "Godwin's Law". That reason is that the Nazis committed genocide on a massive scale, systemically and cold-bloodedly exterminating people on a racial basis. When you compare someone to a Nazi, you are comparing them to a genocidal killer, that is the intention. You are (explicitly or implicitly) comparing their behavior to that of a genocidal killer's, making them to be similar to one of the worst groups of people in history.
Such comparisions, therefore, need to be made with care. Godwin's Law exists because making superfluous comparisons to the Nazis is a low debating tactic, but it also intentionally or unintentionally makes your opponent's argument far worse than it actually is (unless your opponent's argument is that genocide is a good idea). The Nazis have done lots of things that other people do all the time, from ridiculously mundane things like driving Volkswagens to morally questionable things like fighting in urban environments. But, in my opinion, comparing another group of people to the Nazis for any other reason besides crimes against humanity is a terrible idea, because it opens the floodgates to more and more tenuous comparisons:
Israel keeps the Gazans' blockaded, just like the Nazis did! The Palestinians have anti-Semitic newspapers and TV shows, just like the Nazis did! The United States invaded another country, just like the Nazis did! Great Britain uses bombers in war, just like the Nazis did! President Obama was democratically elected, just like Hitler was!
After a while, you can compare pretty much anyone or anything to the Nazis, just having a more and more tenuous connection (John Kerry is white, just like the Nazis were!), but then the comparison becomes meaningless. That is why I am making an appeal: reserve Nazi comparisons for those who do what the Nazis are famous for: committing genocide on a massive scale. If you think Israel is committing genocide on a massive scale, that's your opinion and we can discuss/argue about it. But making Nazi comparisons for reasons other than that are misleading and dishonest.
Now, for comparing Israel in particular to the Nazis being anti-Semitic, this is just because the Nazis specifically targeted the Jews (among others). It's tantamount to telling a black person they are acting like a slave owner. Everyone does not want to be like a Nazi or a slave owner, but it hurts especially more when a Jew or a black person is called those things, because of the specific history (and oftentimes when people compare Israel to the Nazis, they know this and do it intentionally).
Now, I have a little bit of a problem that simply writing off all comparisons of Israel to the Nazis is anti-Semitic. If Israel was in fact committing genocide and marching the Palestinians into death camps, I would the first to state their behavior is similar if not identical to the Nazis. But any comparisons beyond that I'm willing to argue are, for the reasons outlined above.
Do you disagree with another of these points? Leave a comment below and we'll discuss it.
HuffPoWatch: Hamas: Israel Assassinated Operative In Dubai
A couple of days ago a new story was published on the HP. Hamas claimed that Israel had killed one of their operatives, and if one reads the article it definitely sounds like there were suspicious circumstances. Though there were a few abusive comments (and you can click the link below to read them), I had a couple more observations about the story.
-Although many of the talkbackers agreed with Israel on this topic, and thought that the Hamasnick got what he deserved, I thought it was interesting that many of the anti-Zionist crowd accepted Hamas' word unquestioningly. I can only imagine that if it were the Israelis claiming that one of their people had been assassinated by Hamas there would be many accusations of "playing the victim," "indoctrination," and other expressions of suspicion.
-Many of Israel's detractors tried to make the case that the alleged assassination was an "extrajudicial killing," and therefore illegal. Yes, seriously. Apparently it's okay for the US and Britain to kill hundreds of terrorists with a Predator drone, but Israel needs to arrest and give a trial to every single Hamas operative. It's not much of an argument: Hamas is the government of a nation at war with Israel, they aren't Israeli criminals. I guess they have to scrape the bottom of the barrel on that one. It's also quite interesting that they are willing to condemn Israel for killing a member of Hamas, but we take that for granted at this point.
Now, here are the comments:
TStringfellow
Billy Hell
TAIsabel
MMIIXX
MarcusT
hemara
TStringfellow
Rollie
TStringfellow
nonagendaeyes
jasev01
-Although many of the talkbackers agreed with Israel on this topic, and thought that the Hamasnick got what he deserved, I thought it was interesting that many of the anti-Zionist crowd accepted Hamas' word unquestioningly. I can only imagine that if it were the Israelis claiming that one of their people had been assassinated by Hamas there would be many accusations of "playing the victim," "indoctrination," and other expressions of suspicion.
-Many of Israel's detractors tried to make the case that the alleged assassination was an "extrajudicial killing," and therefore illegal. Yes, seriously. Apparently it's okay for the US and Britain to kill hundreds of terrorists with a Predator drone, but Israel needs to arrest and give a trial to every single Hamas operative. It's not much of an argument: Hamas is the government of a nation at war with Israel, they aren't Israeli criminals. I guess they have to scrape the bottom of the barrel on that one. It's also quite interesting that they are willing to condemn Israel for killing a member of Hamas, but we take that for granted at this point.
Now, here are the comments:
TStringfellow
Billy Hell
[deleted] Take your propaganda and shove it where it fits best. No matter what spin you try to put on it, the actions of Israel have amounted and continue to amount to atrocities against humanity.
hemara
hemara
Olge - That's your own faulty logic telling you people support them because they "lost".
It's a matter of UNIVERSAL human rights.
I find it disgusting that Israel postures as a civilised nation when it treats the Palestinians as sub-human.
It's a matter of UNIVERSAL human rights.
I find it disgusting that Israel postures as a civilised nation when it treats the Palestinians as sub-human.
TAIsabel
Israel can build "The Great Wall of Israel" completely around itself, build a 15 foot deep moat filled with sharks along the wall, top it all off with a roof, kill every Hammas or Palestinian man, woman and child and still it will NEVER achieve peace.
The damage done is too great, the ill will created too deep and the anti-Semitism fostered by the actions of the recalcitrant Zionists (at the expense of their own Jewish people) now growing worldwide. No Israel, I am afraid you have created your own hell.MMIIXX
Israel was founded on terrorism ,why does it surprise you that they would murder somebody like this ?
MarcusT
And don't forget about the whole "promised land" thing. There are so many reasons Israel has to murder people of the region.
hemara
"Israel is a long-standing nation with a history that stretches back for several centuries.
Ha ha. Where was it? Poland? [Denying Jewish history.]
MarcusT
TStringfellow Ha ha. Where was it? Poland? [Denying Jewish history.]
MarcusT
CAREFUL! Zionists mercenaries should completely avoid any mention of international law.
So your warning about "living and dying by the sword" only apply to Palestinian people? Israel can go about wiedling its swords in whatever way it pleases?
At least you people make no pretensions about your unbelievable racism. [Who's "you people" I wonder?]
At least you people make no pretensions about your unbelievable racism. [Who's "you people" I wonder?]
TStringfellow
It isn't about pity for Hamas. It's about the rule of law, it's about justice, it's about a sane and rational way to gain the world's respect for your country. Israeli failed on all counts. This kind of murder is illegal, there is no due process, no verification to the outside world, nothing. [One could never find a better example of a nation taking steps to defend itself than here. Yet he considers it to be illegal. Perfect.]
It isn't about defending Hamas. It's about establishing the rule of law and ending this unceasing cycle of violence. You can't sit and crow about the excess of Hamas and Hizbollah while you defend extrajudicial assassinations by Israel.
It isn't about defending Hamas. It's about establishing the rule of law and ending this unceasing cycle of violence. You can't sit and crow about the excess of Hamas and Hizbollah while you defend extrajudicial assassinations by Israel.
Rollie
In Bin Laden's latest tape calling the US responsible for global climate change and calling for the abandonment of the dollar, he also played a tape from the 9/11 bombers - in essence they said, as long as the Palestinians have no peace Americans will have no peace.
Following the 9/11 bombings, Bin Laden said the number one reason for the bombings was the US support of Israel's genocide against the Palestinian people, who, he said, have no one to fight for them and die daily at the hands of US backed Israel.
Obama didn't even mention Palestine in his SOTU address even though the Palestinian genocide by the Israelis is the number one cause for so called 'terrorists'.
Paying Israel $5 Billion annually to build settlements in Palestinian West Bank and to blockade needed assistance in Gaza is truly a terrorist act.
We deserve any blow back we get.
Following the 9/11 bombings, Bin Laden said the number one reason for the bombings was the US support of Israel's genocide against the Palestinian people, who, he said, have no one to fight for them and die daily at the hands of US backed Israel.
Obama didn't even mention Palestine in his SOTU address even though the Palestinian genocide by the Israelis is the number one cause for so called 'terrorists'.
Paying Israel $5 Billion annually to build settlements in Palestinian West Bank and to blockade needed assistance in Gaza is truly a terrorist act.
We deserve any blow back we get.
TStringfellow
They also deny freedom of movement for the people whose land they're occupying. They also bulldoze people's houses and occasionally people's families. They also shoot children and bomb civilian infrastructure. They also deny basic sanitation and healthcare facilities in the occupied territories. [Untrue.]
Oh wait, that's Israel.
Oh wait, that's Israel.
nonagendaeyes
But I don't understand
jasev01
Then they wonder why people hate them
nyc4u
nyc4u
Palestine belongs to the PaIestinians.
TStringfellow
TStringfellow
MarcusT
TStringfellow
If by "Israelis" you mean white Europeans with an invented history of semitism, then sure, Israeli is for "Israelis".
TStringfellow
The fact that your beloved Israeli state has denied these people an infrastructure and a viable nation state does not prove that they aren't deserving of one.
Blacks in South Africa had none of these things either. The fact that their respressive government enforced a policy of apartheid does not eclipse their historic and moral right to the land.
The same is true of the Palestine situation. The so called "Israelis" (who are, in reality, white European invaders) are following the same historical trajectory. They will continue to repress and vilify Palestinians right up until the time when the tide of history comes crashing down on their heads.
The denial of a state infrastructure for the Palestinian people by "Israelis" does not make 60 years of apartheid "OK".
Blacks in South Africa had none of these things either. The fact that their respressive government enforced a policy of apartheid does not eclipse their historic and moral right to the land.
The same is true of the Palestine situation. The so called "Israelis" (who are, in reality, white European invaders) are following the same historical trajectory. They will continue to repress and vilify Palestinians right up until the time when the tide of history comes crashing down on their heads.
The denial of a state infrastructure for the Palestinian people by "Israelis" does not make 60 years of apartheid "OK".
MarcusT
[To a pro-Israel poster.] Apparently when you join the IDF they extract a sizable portion of your brain as well as any integrity you might have carelessly picked up.
TStringfellow
http://att
They're Palestinian coins from 1927 .By your logic they should say "Syria".
Now, your comment about Jordan is equally ridiculous. You actually said "The only homeland Arabs in Israel need is Jordan". Clearly you're wrong on this, the Palestinian people who lived in what is today called Israel CLEARLY are not willing to give you their land. Your relatives and their Brit allies took people's land and sent them hundreds of miles away in exile. You think it's acceptable to offer them Jordan?
As for being "white invaders", do some research. The premise that those living in Israel today are "semitic" has been discredited. So called "Israelis" can actually be traced genetically back to people from Russia's caucasus. The idea that today's Israeli's are somehow descended from King David is nothing but progpaganda to legitimize your drawn out stay in a foreign land.
And Israel IS an apartheid state. Anyone being honest about the situation knows that Israel is the authority when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank. Israel does not allow those living in the Occupied Territories any rights/freedoms whatsoever, that is apartheid. Give them a state and we won't be able to make that criticism anymore.
Kaviraj
Palestine was a nation long before 1964, you are simply inventing facts. They never had a state, but Palestinians self identified as such long before the establishment of the state of Israel.
As proof I offer this image: http://att
They're Palestinian coins from 1927 .By your logic they should say "Syria".
Now, your comment about Jordan is equally ridiculous. You actually said "The only homeland Arabs in Israel need is Jordan". Clearly you're wrong on this, the Palestinian people who lived in what is today called Israel CLEARLY are not willing to give you their land. Your relatives and their Brit allies took people's land and sent them hundreds of miles away in exile. You think it's acceptable to offer them Jordan?
As for being "white invaders", do some research. The premise that those living in Israel today are "semitic" has been discredited. So called "Israelis" can actually be traced genetically back to people from Russia's caucasus. The idea that today's Israeli's are somehow descended from King David is nothing but progpaganda to legitimize your drawn out stay in a foreign land.
And Israel IS an apartheid state. Anyone being honest about the situation knows that Israel is the authority when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank. Israel does not allow those living in the Occupied Territories any rights/freedoms whatsoever, that is apartheid. Give them a state and we won't be able to make that criticism anymore.
Kaviraj
1400 civilians dead in gaza in the last war. That is ok, because Palestinians are all "terrorists". No that is real drivel.
TStringfellow
Yeah, the just ran a bulldozer over Rachel Corrie because the tractor's guidance system failed, right?
Israel targets civilians consistently. If you did not immediately reject anything coming from a Palestinian source as "propaganda" that fact would be evident.Kaviraj
Neither is Israel an American Aid responsibility yet their terrorist regime is maintained by 5-10 billion US per year. But of course in your optical view of things that is ok.
MarcusT
It's just soooo complicated, huh? So if Hamas and Israel are at war this is an act of was and "assassination is not quite applicable. But then if a state of war exists how does one side become "terrorists" and the other "the most moral military in the world" ? If it's a civilian body count then Israel wins hands down-how many civilians died in this operation? So that leaves the pro assassination, pro modern military against the pot hole makers, crowd with no choice but to take the 'my guys are the good guys' position. Nothing wrong or odd about that. But let's not pretend it's anything more than intellectually bankrupt emotional drivel.
skialethia
skialethia
Israel gives new meaning to the phrase: "cycle" of violence.
Rachel Brownlee
MarcusT
Rachel Brownlee
"Richard Ingrams wondered whether the Zionists links to the Iraq invasion would be brushed aside". [The Jews Zionists pushed America into war.]
http://www.redress.cc/stooges/redress20100129MarcusT
[To a pro-Israel poster.] Do you have your new work camps designed yet?
Rachel Brownlee
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1145670.html[Off topic at the *very* least.]
[responses]
skialethia
Rachel Brownlee
Can you imagine an article like this appearing in the western media?
"Holocaust remembrance is a boon for Israeli propaganda."http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1145670.html
[responses]
skialethia
I'm thankful that there are Israelis who see things clearly and are not deceived.
Rachel Brownlee
Rachel Brownlee
Well, they can't pay all of them Skialethia.
skialethia
Everyone says civilians are off limits. This Hamas commander killed 2 Israeli soldiers. If we take the criteria set by Israel, soldiers are not off limits.
Targeted assassinations are wrong. When the leader of Hamas, Maschaal was poisoned, Jordan threatened to recall their ambassador and more serious consequences would have evolved. This act makes the accusation that Israel poisoned Arafat very credible and especially considering Israel assasinated and imprisoned many other Palestinian and Lebanese leaders.
Marwan Barghouti sits in an Israeli prison charged with incitement and as an accessory to crimes he did not commit.
Israel declared war on Hamas, yet Israel killed 4 times more civilians than resistance fighters in their wars and attacks against Palestinians! Resistance fighters with their non-guided rockets unfortunately killed some Israel civilians. I'm positive that if Hamas had guided weaponry there would be 4 times more soldiers killed than civilians as opposed to Israel which killed 4 times more civilians!
Injustice breeds cyclical violence.[Posted twice.]
Rachel Brownlee
MarcusT
skialethia
I condemn all forms of violence and believe war is avoidable. However, we do not live in the perfect world I envision. So considering the deplorable situation this conflict creates, I perceive this act this way:
Before the partition 300,000 Palestinians were expelled or forced to flee from their land by Irgun and Lehi’s acts and hundreds of thousands more fled by 1949. These acts and their fruits opened the door to Palestinian resistance. The settlers and military occupation of today are the fruits of Lehi and Irgun’s labor.Everyone says civilians are off limits. This Hamas commander killed 2 Israeli soldiers. If we take the criteria set by Israel, soldiers are not off limits.
Targeted assassinations are wrong. When the leader of Hamas, Maschaal was poisoned, Jordan threatened to recall their ambassador and more serious consequences would have evolved. This act makes the accusation that Israel poisoned Arafat very credible and especially considering Israel assasinated and imprisoned many other Palestinian and Lebanese leaders.
Marwan Barghouti sits in an Israeli prison charged with incitement and as an accessory to crimes he did not commit.
Israel declared war on Hamas, yet Israel killed 4 times more civilians than resistance fighters in their wars and attacks against Palestinians! Resistance fighters with their non-guided rockets unfortunately killed some Israel civilians. I'm positive that if Hamas had guided weaponry there would be 4 times more soldiers killed than civilians as opposed to Israel which killed 4 times more civilians!
Injustice breeds cyclical violence.
Rachel Brownlee
Only Israelis are entitled to opinions skia (and land)
riff4u
riff4u
That info coming in from a Mossad controlled news agency [israeltoday.com] is even less believable than a report on Faux News.
Rachel Brownlee
hemara
Rachel Brownlee
At least she has some - and doesn't have to receive them from "Hasabara for Dummies"
hemara
hemara
Israel murders more "innocent women and children" than the Palestinians ever have. [Blood libel.]
Would you be saying "give me a break" Israeli leaders were being regularly killed? I doubt it somehow. Hamas were democratically elected in 2006 if you remember.
FYI Last suicide bombing was 2008, and the last Hamas suicide bombing was in 2005.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_militant_groups_suicide_attacks
Would you be saying "give me a break" Israeli leaders were being regularly killed? I doubt it somehow. Hamas were democratically elected in 2006 if you remember.
FYI Last suicide bombing was 2008, and the last Hamas suicide bombing was in 2005.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_militant_groups_suicide_attacks
The elections were assessed as being free and fair by the monitoring team sent by the European Parliament:
"extremely professional, in line with international standards, free, transparent and without violence"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006#Conduct_of_the_poll
If you turn away from your handbook for a moment and do some research you'll discover Hamas were elected, which freaked Bush and Condi out. Fatah and Hamas formed a unity government but Bush & Co wanted Hamas out so they armed Fatah covertly to overthrow Hamas. In Gaza they failed.
And back to my original point: Israel kills many many more civilians than the Palestinians - and all because it values land over people.
hemara
"extremely professional, in line with international standards, free, transparent and without violence"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006#Conduct_of_the_poll
If you turn away from your handbook for a moment and do some research you'll discover Hamas were elected, which freaked Bush and Condi out. Fatah and Hamas formed a unity government but Bush & Co wanted Hamas out so they armed Fatah covertly to overthrow Hamas. In Gaza they failed.
And back to my original point: Israel kills many many more civilians than the Palestinians - and all because it values land over people.
hemara
uhh, logic blackout.
Extrajudicial killings are nothing to be proud of, its capital punishment without a trial.
Israel also has 300 or so Palestinians in administrative detention - ie being held without charge.
http://www.btselem.org/english/Administrative_Detention/Statistics.asp
So much for "the only democracy in the middle east". On the home front, no respect for law, and internationally no respect for law.
Extrajudicial killings are nothing to be proud of, its capital punishment without a trial.
Israel also has 300 or so Palestinians in administrative detention - ie being held without charge.
http://www.btselem.org/english/Administrative_Detention/Statistics.asp
So much for "the only democracy in the middle east". On the home front, no respect for law, and internationally no respect for law.
Saturday, January 30, 2010
Another Day, Another HuffPoster Calling for Israel's Destruction....
TylerSutherland
Please declare a siege on Israel, or an invasion and dissolution. Seriously, I am NOT waiting until I'm thirty to be able to run for office and dissolve Israel. Am I the only one with the brains and ba lls to say this? Israel is seriously a leech on our society and just another roadblock in our democracy, a la lobbying. They have been torturing the Palestinians by stealing their land, piece by piece. The land that Israel sits on, all of it, from top to bottom, is Palestinian territory and I don't give two sh!ts what anyone else says. Palestinians were there first, for decades under the Ottoman Empire.And here I was thinking it was illegal to call to destroy a sovereign state and member of the United Nations.
Get over it, Israeli's. There is no 'Holy Land'. And if there was, it would probably be Amsterdam.
Friday, January 29, 2010
HuffPoWatch: Israel Cracks Down on Wall Protesters
A relatively recent article about the (not particulary) non-violent protests against the wall in Bilin was published on the HP. There weren't very many comments, but among those that appeared there was quite a lot of anti-Semitism. Mostly the "Jews are just like Nazis" variety. Click the link below to read.
Israel Cracks Down on Wall Protesters
David Rozgonyi
punkindmb
[response]
Erzsebet Gilbert
[response]
CigarGod
btw, have a cigar.
[further responses]
CigarGod
hemara
omobob
Thabit
Erzsebet Gilbert
If I were Palestinian, I'd probably experience self-pity after this, and after my land had been seized, my freedom limited, my family starved and my identity animalized, I wouldn't be in the most diplomatic of moods. I'd dream of being treated like a human once again.
hemara
Hank007
TonyLunchmeat
TonyLunchmeat
000Jade000
hemara
TonyLunchmeat
TonyLunchmeat
Israel Cracks Down on Wall Protesters
David Rozgonyi
[To a pro-Israel poster.] Someone should teach you how to read and open your eyes to hypocrisy instead of spouting jingoistic rhetoric that just continues to prove your ignorance.
punkindmb
During WWII, Jews were put into ghettos. Having gone through all that, what do they do? So sad. You would think a people like that would have more empathy.
Erzsebet Gilbert
You're so right - ghettoization, confiscation of property, forced identity papers, economic & medical & social deprivation, the slaughter of civilians... what happened to "never forget"? And how long will the world watch the atrocity before we act?
CigarGod
It doesn't matter that the similarities are overwhelming.
Until the uniforms and language spoken is the same, they will refuse to admit it.\btw, have a cigar.
[further responses]
CigarGod
Yes, that is pretty much it.
But, I also am intrigued that the almost universal denial of the similarities are so strong that the deniers are unable to recognize the irony of the recent example and work hammer and tong to eliminate it.hemara
CG - The deniability has been institutionalised:
"Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:..
...Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."
http://www
The "could include" section is always ignored. I've witnessed more than one hasbarite chuck a tantrum on here because someone made the comparison.
The free speech implicatio
"Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:..
...Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."
http://www
The "could include" section is always ignored. I've witnessed more than one hasbarite chuck a tantrum on here because someone made the comparison.
The free speech implicatio
The Palestinians are not put into ghettos. No, They are put into Gaza, which is worse than a ghetto. Gaza, where medicine, food, water and fuel are controlled by the whims of the Isrealis.
Thabit
Not peaceful well you are right there the palestinians are peaceful but the IOF (Israeli Occupation Forces) and Local Police Goon squad is anything BUT peaceful so you are half right
Erzsebet Gilbert
Another sad story? How about the 1982 rape, torture, and massacre of Palestinian civilians at Sabra and Chatila, by the Phalangist militia employed by Israel whilst Israeli soldiers made sure no civilian could escape the village until the extermination of Palestinian men, women, and children were exterminated? [Revisionist history, if that.]
"A shameful tragedy indeed."If I were Palestinian, I'd probably experience self-pity after this, and after my land had been seized, my freedom limited, my family starved and my identity animalized, I wouldn't be in the most diplomatic of moods. I'd dream of being treated like a human once again.
hemara
Megaphone didn't direct him to it.
Richard Pearce
Richard Pearce
Iran arrests 'protesters', puts them through trials of questionable quality (sure some get released, some aquitted, but that doesn't mean those convicted are in fact guilty), and then kills some. [A lie. Capital punishment is illegal in Israel. It has only ever been used once.]
Israel skips the arrest, and trial for those it wants to kill.
But, hey, the second method let's the PR guys make all sorts of claims.
Israel skips the arrest, and trial for those it wants to kill.
But, hey, the second method let's the PR guys make all sorts of claims.
Hank007
'Their' government is the government of Israel, who kills them for protesting, kills them for trying to get water, kills them for being children, you get the idea. [Blood libel.]
hemara
hemara
You didn't look too hard.
You're 100% right, those _lazy_ _impudent_ Palestinians, it's all their fault for not thriving when half of them are under military occupation and the other half are trapped in a Ghetto reminiscent of Warsaw.
You're 100% right, those _lazy_ _impudent_ Palestinians, it's all their fault for not thriving when half of them are under military occupation and the other half are trapped in a Ghetto reminiscent of Warsaw.
TonyLunchmeat
The problem is that for a large, politically and economically powerful group in this country [I wonder who?], the war to create a Greater Israel, free of Arabs and preserved as a Jewish-apartheid state, isn't, to them, someone else's war, they consider it to be THEIR war.
TonyLunchmeat
The people who invaded from Europe and stole the land in the first place started the violence.
000Jade000
Didn't Obama, himself, say that peaceful channels don't always work and that force is sometimes needed? Well, after DECADES of being illegally occupied by Israel, that's why the Palestinian youth are sometimes matching the violence being leveled against them with violence.
Israel is badly losing the PR war.
[response]Israel is badly losing the PR war.
hemara
You are right - Israel's words about peace are shown to be nothing more than rhetoric.
Palestinians resist violently? They're put down violently.
Palestinians resist non-violently? They're put down violently.
No regime interested in peace acts like that. I'm reminded of Iran and their post-election reactions more each day.
Palestinians resist violently? They're put down violently.
Palestinians resist non-violently? They're put down violently.
No regime interested in peace acts like that. I'm reminded of Iran and their post-election reactions more each day.
TonyLunchmeat
Why shouldn't the Palestinians resist the violence of the Israeli theft and occupation of Palestine with violence? or is self-defense reserved for Jews alone, in your opinion?
TonyLunchmeat
TonyLunchmeat
The Palestinians believed that all the people should live in one state. The Jews wanted an ethno-religious apartheid state. The Palestinians were right in resisting.
And here we are, after decades of US open wallets and israeli propaganda, we reach the point where a foreign, invading people, can portray itself victims of those they are oppressing and occupying.
But you still didn't answer my question. Given that we are where we are, why shouldn't the Palestinians use violence? Is self-defense only permitted of Jews?
And here we are, after decades of US open wallets and israeli propaganda, we reach the point where a foreign, invading people, can portray itself victims of those they are oppressing and occupying.
But you still didn't answer my question. Given that we are where we are, why shouldn't the Palestinians use violence? Is self-defense only permitted of Jews?
TonyLunchmeat
The only solution that is possible now is a one-state solution, whereby everyone in the land has a say in the government. The cancer of settlement and occupation is establishing that. But those who favor an ethno-relgious apartheid state will continue the occupation indefinately and thereby lose whatever humanity they have left, rather then respect the rights of the Palestinians.
TonyLunchmeat
TonyLunchmeat
Wow. The ethno-religious bigotry of the israelis is really ugly when it hits the light of day. Given the way that the Israelis have treated the Palestinians over the last 100-odd years, since the ethnic cleansings of 1947-on, and especially since the occupations since 1967, don't be too surprised to learn that paranoid Israeli fears are not too high on my list of concerns.
hemara
hemara
" non-Muslims tend to get treated very harshly in Muslim majority countries.
More ridiculous generalisations. I've lived and worked in muslim majority countries and as a non-muslim was treated no better or worse. You're merely trying to spread fear.
Posturing aside Israel isn't even a democracy now: it goes through the motions but the courts and police/IDF favour jews in Israel proper and the treatment of the Palestinians within the OPTs is undeniably repugnant.
More ridiculous generalisations. I've lived and worked in muslim majority countries and as a non-muslim was treated no better or worse. You're merely trying to spread fear.
Posturing aside Israel isn't even a democracy now: it goes through the motions but the courts and police/IDF favour jews in Israel proper and the treatment of the Palestinians within the OPTs is undeniably repugnant.
A Human Rights Rant
I felt obligated after reading the recent Obama article to write about the use (and misuse) of the term "human rights."
In terms of strict legal terms, human rights don't actually exist. There are only the civil rights provided by each government to their citizens. For example, America's Bill of Rights in the Constitution, which grants freedom of speech, religion, assembly, and so forth to every citizens of the United States.
The term "human rights" only came along recently, and was first written down in a legal document in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And it basically said that every person on Earth, no matter who they are or where they live, deserve certain rights. Which includes freedom of speech, liberty, and most important: Life. I highly recommend that you check out the entire list, because it's quite extensive.
Now, the creation of human rights is, on the surface, a great thing. Everyone should be treated humanely! And if someone is not being granted his or her human rights, someone must step in to make sure that they do. What could be wrong with that?
Well, what's wrong with it is that like all things that were created in pursuit of an ideal, it suffers when implemented into the real world. Let me give you some examples:
Article 13. 2: Everyone has the right to leave any country, including their own, and to return to their country.
-What if the person is a criminal, and was deported, something which happens all the time? I thought he or she had a "human right" to return to their country? How does this apply to people who commit crimes in other countries? Can they exercise their "right" to return and thus evade justice should their home country choose not to prosecute?
Article 26: Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
I'm not going to say that education is a bad thing, but I can't help but wonder: What if the nation cannot afford to pay for it? Is it the responsibility for richer nations to pay for the education of poorer ones, just to satisfy a rather arbitrary claim about a right to education?
And of course there is the problem of implementation: Many countries violate the UDHR (which I'm sure is no surprise) and yet no one anywhere even tries to stop them. So what's the point of having a law if it isn't going to be enforced?
___________________________________________
We can argue about the pros and cons of the UDHR but the point is that this is something which is very often hijacked for political gain. And the Obama thread gave us a perfect example.
A Palestinian supporter will claim: "The Israelis are violating the human rights of Palestinians when they keep them under occupation and make them stand in line at checkpoints (for example)!"
An Israeli supporter will claim: "The Palestinians are violating the human rights of Israelis when they try to kill them or make their lives a living hell with rockets! That's why we do that!"
And hence there is a contradiction: Is the Palestinian right to travel through the West Bank and into Israel unmolested greater than the Israeli right to live free of the threat of violence? Palestinian supporters certainly seem to think so! Some interpreters of the document say that the right to life is the greatest right of all, but take a look at the document:
Article 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security.
They are all placed right next to each other. And besides, the document itself doesn't say which rights supersede which, if any. So this leads to the problem: People who support one side or the other will label the other side as a human rights violator, while ignoring the human rights violations on their own side. And it's true: An Israeli soldier killing a Palestinian soldier (or vice versa) is indeed violating that soldier's right to life and security. Under the letter of the law.
It's almost enough to make me want to leave the language of "human rights" out of the discussion altogether. It has become no longer based on law and is instead based on perspective: I think that this thing is bad, so I'm going to call it a human rights violation.
In terms of strict legal terms, human rights don't actually exist. There are only the civil rights provided by each government to their citizens. For example, America's Bill of Rights in the Constitution, which grants freedom of speech, religion, assembly, and so forth to every citizens of the United States.
The term "human rights" only came along recently, and was first written down in a legal document in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And it basically said that every person on Earth, no matter who they are or where they live, deserve certain rights. Which includes freedom of speech, liberty, and most important: Life. I highly recommend that you check out the entire list, because it's quite extensive.
Now, the creation of human rights is, on the surface, a great thing. Everyone should be treated humanely! And if someone is not being granted his or her human rights, someone must step in to make sure that they do. What could be wrong with that?
Well, what's wrong with it is that like all things that were created in pursuit of an ideal, it suffers when implemented into the real world. Let me give you some examples:
Article 13. 2: Everyone has the right to leave any country, including their own, and to return to their country.
-What if the person is a criminal, and was deported, something which happens all the time? I thought he or she had a "human right" to return to their country? How does this apply to people who commit crimes in other countries? Can they exercise their "right" to return and thus evade justice should their home country choose not to prosecute?
Article 26: Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
I'm not going to say that education is a bad thing, but I can't help but wonder: What if the nation cannot afford to pay for it? Is it the responsibility for richer nations to pay for the education of poorer ones, just to satisfy a rather arbitrary claim about a right to education?
And of course there is the problem of implementation: Many countries violate the UDHR (which I'm sure is no surprise) and yet no one anywhere even tries to stop them. So what's the point of having a law if it isn't going to be enforced?
___________________________________________
We can argue about the pros and cons of the UDHR but the point is that this is something which is very often hijacked for political gain. And the Obama thread gave us a perfect example.
A Palestinian supporter will claim: "The Israelis are violating the human rights of Palestinians when they keep them under occupation and make them stand in line at checkpoints (for example)!"
An Israeli supporter will claim: "The Palestinians are violating the human rights of Israelis when they try to kill them or make their lives a living hell with rockets! That's why we do that!"
And hence there is a contradiction: Is the Palestinian right to travel through the West Bank and into Israel unmolested greater than the Israeli right to live free of the threat of violence? Palestinian supporters certainly seem to think so! Some interpreters of the document say that the right to life is the greatest right of all, but take a look at the document:
Article 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security.
They are all placed right next to each other. And besides, the document itself doesn't say which rights supersede which, if any. So this leads to the problem: People who support one side or the other will label the other side as a human rights violator, while ignoring the human rights violations on their own side. And it's true: An Israeli soldier killing a Palestinian soldier (or vice versa) is indeed violating that soldier's right to life and security. Under the letter of the law.
It's almost enough to make me want to leave the language of "human rights" out of the discussion altogether. It has become no longer based on law and is instead based on perspective: I think that this thing is bad, so I'm going to call it a human rights violation.
New on the HP: 54 Congress Members Urge End to the Siege
Relatively old news, but the Huffington Post recently published the story that 54 members of Congress have signed a letter urging President Obama to take steps to end the blockade of Gaza.
Now we can talk about this news and what it means for the US/Israel relationship, but I think it's more interesting in light of yesterday's anti-Semitic filled commentary on Obama's answer about a question about Israel's human rights abuses. A great many HPers advocated that the only reason Obama stands with Israel is because of the Israeli (or Joooooish) lobby which runs the government (apparently) and that they would 'destroy his presidency' if he stepped out of line.
With this news, though, it seems pretty clear the Israeli lobby does not run the US government or at least is nowhere near as powerful as the doomsayers claim they are. I'll be waiting for the admittance of errors, they should happen any time now.
.....
Still waiting....
Now we can talk about this news and what it means for the US/Israel relationship, but I think it's more interesting in light of yesterday's anti-Semitic filled commentary on Obama's answer about a question about Israel's human rights abuses. A great many HPers advocated that the only reason Obama stands with Israel is because of the Israeli (or Joooooish) lobby which runs the government (apparently) and that they would 'destroy his presidency' if he stepped out of line.
With this news, though, it seems pretty clear the Israeli lobby does not run the US government or at least is nowhere near as powerful as the doomsayers claim they are. I'll be waiting for the admittance of errors, they should happen any time now.
.....
Still waiting....
HuffPoWatch: Obama Asked Why US Doesn't Criticize Israeli HR Abuses
Well, there was quite the informative thread yesterday. An article was posted in the "News" section about someone in a town hall meeting asking President Obama why America did not criticize Israeli and Egyptian human rights abuses against Palestinians (though the "Egyptian" part did not make it into the headline). The President's answer was pretty well balanced: He said that it was important to realize that both sides commit wrong actions, but that using loaded language was not helpful for seeking peace.
The reaction of the Huffington Posters, however, are what we are really interested in. At first, the thread was people bashing the President and the majority of posters defending him and what he said. This left the anti-Zionists in a difficult position: How can we hold strongly opposing (and extreme) views than the President? Could he possibly be right?
They eventually reconciled this with the perfect conclusion: Obama knows that Israel is totally wrong and evil, but the Jews are forcing him to toe the line! And thus an outpouring of anti-Semitism was released onto the fully moderated thread. Most of the comments were the standard "Jews control America/Congress/Obama" fare, but there were also attacks on Israel as a democracy, etc. There were even a couple that claimed Jews were more loyal to Israel than America, though many were deleted as well. You can read the comments for yourself. It was quite disappointing: Just when we thought anti-Semitism on the Huffington Post might be decreasing, it ramps up again massively.
Naturally, this is an ongoing thread, so there will probably be more comments before this is posted.
Tidyus
riff4u
acudoc
skialethia
Obama must live in a parallel universe because his answer is completely divorced from reality. Palestinians are suffering excrutiating oppression and Obama pretends to be "uninformed".
It's very obvious Rahm Emanuel's instructed him on the issue according to Israel Projects "Global Language Dictionary": Start by saying positive things about Israel; "Israel is the ally; Israel is a democracy; Israel can do no wrong; followed by "our security; their security"....and then "we should sit down and talk it over for the hundreth time"; and never, ever mention: the Palestinians are suffering abuses and oppression.
Palestinians are evermore so crowded into those ghettos, losing more land, more rights, at the mercy of the settlers and their "king's torah" guide (google it!) which spells out the goal very clearly, and this piece of "literature" is funded with U.S. dollars, believe it or not!
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135200.html
I suggest the President get a copy and a dose of reality!
jusgimmeafreakinusername
Bushknew2
desert sage
rtb61
jamilk99
dfortruth
Bluebloodsbastardson
I'll guess most likely not and as long as that situation is permitted to exist by you, you nor your "people" will ever know a moment of peace, which is probably exactly the way you want it to be. Wear it well amigo. Your approach fails IMO and needs to go back to the drawing board, likely to never happen without Divine Intervention.
Henk
nicainmiami
Countess
Anntink
DimBulb2
3neuticals
nyckid
The reaction of the Huffington Posters, however, are what we are really interested in. At first, the thread was people bashing the President and the majority of posters defending him and what he said. This left the anti-Zionists in a difficult position: How can we hold strongly opposing (and extreme) views than the President? Could he possibly be right?
They eventually reconciled this with the perfect conclusion: Obama knows that Israel is totally wrong and evil, but the Jews are forcing him to toe the line! And thus an outpouring of anti-Semitism was released onto the fully moderated thread. Most of the comments were the standard "Jews control America/Congress/Obama" fare, but there were also attacks on Israel as a democracy, etc. There were even a couple that claimed Jews were more loyal to Israel than America, though many were deleted as well. You can read the comments for yourself. It was quite disappointing: Just when we thought anti-Semitism on the Huffington Post might be decreasing, it ramps up again massively.
Naturally, this is an ongoing thread, so there will probably be more comments before this is posted.
Tidyus
Obama's response was very disappointing. Israel no longer deserves to be a nation. We should stop giving then aid. We should discontinue our treaty with them.
riff4u
As an "ally" what has Israel ever done for the US? Have they fought in a war with the US. No........
David Rozgonyi
David Rozgonyi
I thought the original comment was actually fair and more importantly, respectful. And as for offending the sacred pride of the pale.stinian people, you do realize that there is utterly and absolutely nothing you can criticize the state of Is'rael about or its actions that isn't immediately labeled anti-sem.itic, right?
acudoc
All I know is that my son is not going to die in a Middle East war for Israel. That's the bottom line for me. Our President, like all former Presidents, kowtows to the Israeli lobby, irrespective of the wishes of the overwhelming majority of the populace.
Israel----the 51st State.skialethia
I have an image in my mind: the artful dodger! This answer is about as lame as the war=peace meme he invented.
We're talking about significant human rights abuses, that he's been ignoring since his silence on the atrocities we all witnessed during the Gaza invasion.Obama must live in a parallel universe because his answer is completely divorced from reality. Palestinians are suffering excrutiating oppression and Obama pretends to be "uninformed".
It's very obvious Rahm Emanuel's instructed him on the issue according to Israel Projects "Global Language Dictionary": Start by saying positive things about Israel; "Israel is the ally; Israel is a democracy; Israel can do no wrong; followed by "our security; their security"....and then "we should sit down and talk it over for the hundreth time"; and never, ever mention: the Palestinians are suffering abuses and oppression.
Palestinians are evermore so crowded into those ghettos, losing more land, more rights, at the mercy of the settlers and their "king's torah" guide (google it!) which spells out the goal very clearly, and this piece of "literature" is funded with U.S. dollars, believe it or not!
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135200.html
I suggest the President get a copy and a dose of reality!
jusgimmeafreakinusername
i'm sure he's aware that she's right. but he has to be insincere or suffer the wrath of the pro-israel lobby.
A spineless status quo reply from our president.
Full steam ahead Israel, continue building your settlements. You are the 51st sate of the Untied States.
nyckid Full steam ahead Israel, continue building your settlements. You are the 51st sate of the Untied States.
There is no democracy where there is religious discrimination [How ironic, Tony.]. Obama is not thinking right.
MLK did indeed make the anti-zionist = anti-semite comment but everyone makes mistakes. If you don't believe there are a large number of semites (jews) in israel who are anti-zionist then you are ignorant of what is currently going on in israel. operation cast lead was an exercise in genocide and it is way past time that we get on the right side of this issue. I fear that America as currently constituted would call our founding fathers terrorist and side with george III. go figure.
MarcusT
ilovecandy MarcusT
OMG! Centuries and then standard AIPAC rhetoric. Just depressingly lame.
hacksaw
Riverman
jusgimmeafreakinusername
MeDonut
To understand the real reason that Obama was clearly put on the spot and didn’t answer the question read:
“The Israel Lobby”
by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt
The London Review of Books
[Edited for length. The rest of the post is a description of the book.]
hacksaw
Any mention of the j word or the A lobby seems to get scrubbed on this site proving my accusation
Israel is a democracy? I thought they were a theocratic republic. As long as people are sorted by religion nothing but pain can come of it. I am not against the Jews and I do not support the Arab decision to have the Palestinians live in a permanent state of war. However we created this mess in hubris induced fever. I can only wonder how things might have worked out if we had stuck to our values rather than creating a religious based government in somebody else’s country.
jusgimmeafreakinusername
the rhetoric is awful because it reflects the awful reality. z.ionism is an ideology of ethnic supremacy at the root of some of the most egregious injustices of the 20th century.
Change we can believe in? New President. Same obfuscation of the issues.
Zeta, you got it correct. The answer is, "Because AIPAC owns me and most members of Congress both Republican and Democrat. And we won't go against the Jewish lobby no matter how badly Israel behaves. "
Dan Stewart Zeta, you got it correct. The answer is, "Because AIPAC owns me and most members of Congress both Republican and Democrat. And we won't go against the Jewish lobby no matter how badly Israel behaves. "
To understand the real reason that Obama was clearly put on the spot and didn’t answer the question read:
“The Israel Lobby”
by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt
The London Review of Books
[Edited for length. The rest of the post is a description of the book.]
He wouldn't even get one term, they'd get him out in less than a year.
rtb61
Why the continued misrepresentation of what is nothing more than religious apartheid. There is no Israel, there is only Palestine, a state where there are two distinct religious sects, and people who exploit the difference between the two sects for their own personal power and profit. Currently one religious sect blatant uses military power to dominate, isolate and exclude the other religious sect, in order to drive them from the country so that they can steal all the assets of that country and of course rename it to assuage the guilt with claims of historic precedence, based on of course the one particular slice of history which favours them and completely ignoring the rest. Like all abusers, the dominant group is using threats of extreme violence, basically nuclear blackmail, to prevent global isolation but like all cowards that use those kind of tactics the threats are empty, once the line is crossed they know they will lose everything.
kbkw211
kbkw211
Rahm Emmanuel is Jewish [click for context]
Arrowhead2k8
Arrowhead2k8
If they saw him as working against zionist interest, one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington being the Zionist lobbies certainly could tear him a new one.
sonofman
sonofman
[In response to the question "Do you really think the Jews could bring down a President?"]
YES! Its amazing to me that many in America, attempt to make it seem as though, a small group couldn't have the power to bring down a President. As though the President really is in charge! This President, and many others, have all but the same. That it is the SPECIAL INTEREST that actually run Washington! Do you know that at the root of all SPECIAL INTEREST is money and wealth! And at the head of this are the "INTERNATIONAL BANKERS"!
The Jews/Zoinist, are very powerful. And if you know/ understand history, you can see how, and why! THE GENERAL AMERICAN PUBLIC, IS SOOO IGNORANT! It should be a crime! The crimes perputuated against society by those in power. They have the money, and power over what, and how the American public is shaped. The wealthy make up look down. And down look up. They influence the poor to actually do that which is against its own self interest. And for the interest of the wealthy. Mainly, by keeping you ignorant. And many of you just dont want to believe that your government is bought and paid for! We in America don't live in a Democracy! Thats why the Congress can't get anything done for the people! They are bought and paid for! The President. No matter his intensions. His hands are tied Many in America think America is invincible! The IGNORANT. THE ARROGANT. Happen to be they who have the power to change the course we are on.
[other responses to the same question]
Arrowhead2k8
Hank007
nukemind YES! Its amazing to me that many in America, attempt to make it seem as though, a small group couldn't have the power to bring down a President. As though the President really is in charge! This President, and many others, have all but the same. That it is the SPECIAL INTEREST that actually run Washington! Do you know that at the root of all SPECIAL INTEREST is money and wealth! And at the head of this are the "INTERNATIONAL BANKERS"!
The Jews/Zoinist, are very powerful. And if you know/ understand history, you can see how, and why! THE GENERAL AMERICAN PUBLIC, IS SOOO IGNORANT! It should be a crime! The crimes perputuated against society by those in power. They have the money, and power over what, and how the American public is shaped. The wealthy make up look down. And down look up. They influence the poor to actually do that which is against its own self interest. And for the interest of the wealthy. Mainly, by keeping you ignorant. And many of you just dont want to believe that your government is bought and paid for! We in America don't live in a Democracy! Thats why the Congress can't get anything done for the people! They are bought and paid for! The President. No matter his intensions. His hands are tied Many in America think America is invincible! The IGNORANT. THE ARROGANT. Happen to be they who have the power to change the course we are on.
[other responses to the same question]
Arrowhead2k8
If they saw him as working against zionist interest, one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington being the Zionist lobbies certainly could tear him a new one.
robbie
robbie
You must not know much about AIPAC and waht sort of power they wield.
Hank007
It is a democracy only if you're Jewish, and they talk smack about the US constantly.
Zanubiyah
Zanubiyah
There is no such thing as a theocratic democracy. Not even a Jewish one.
Yoda
and this will continue as long as we let the Z i o n ! ts controlling our politics and our government.
[He should take his own advice: That hate ... leads to suffering.]
Hank007
Yet EVERYTHING which came out of Israel was made possible by the American taxpayer, and the American soldiers who shed their blood fighting Israel's wars.
We all know why, but good luck getting ANY major outlet to let you ask such questions. Freedom of speech is for whoever the gatekeepers think are 'moderate' and normal. I wouldn't be surprised if that lady was called antisemitic and is now being tracked by AIPAC and/or their allies. They are that vindictive.
jamilk99
Israel killing 1400 civilians and teaming up with Egypt to starve the population of Gaza is probably more "inflammatory" than some language like the lady who rightly accused Israel of human rights abuses.
Then, he claims that we're got to "pay attention to" the plight of the Palestinians not because it's the humane and right thing to do but only because it matters to our security and that of Israel. What a disgusting answer.
jusgimmeafreakinusername
jl32175
nyckid
Razz
Then, he claims that we're got to "pay attention to" the plight of the Palestinians not because it's the humane and right thing to do but only because it matters to our security and that of Israel. What a disgusting answer.
jusgimmeafreakinusername
"why was there no HuffPo articles about Israel's rapid response to the crisis in Haiti?" because like everything the gov't of israel does, it was a transparent PR ploy. a better question is why doesn't israel send some humanitarian relief to gaza? or better yet, stop causing the humanitarian crisis there?
jl32175
I love Jewish culture. I love the great Jewish comedians like Jerry Seinfeld, Adam Sandler, Rodney Dangerfield etc. I love the great Jewish film directors like Woody Allen, the Coen Brothers, Steven Spielberg etc. I appreciate all of the great accomplishments that Jewish people have shared with the world. I love matzo ball soup, bagels & lox, Manachevitz wine, deli sandwiches piled sky high with lunch meat that I can barely fit a bite of in my mouth etc.
What I can't stand is when someone somehow insinuates that I am an anti-Semetic person when I wonder out loud why the hell the US government gives Israel a blank check every year out of my tax dollars when they treat the Palestinians in a similar manner to that of the Germans towards their forefathers or why AIPAC is allowed to blatantly manipulate our public servants much to the detriment of our traditional American values of fairness and disdain for tyranny.nyckid
Because they are the chosen people.
malakies
dobberdoss
malakies
[deleted] Obama danced around the question, we need to stop fighting Israels battles around the world. We all know that all Jewish Americans loyalty lays with Israel not the US.
dobberdoss
They (Palestinians) don't have too recognise anyone! It's their democratic right! Hence Hamas being democratically elected. Of course the US likes to pick and choose what democracy IS
dfortruth
[deleted] Take a look at his advisers, and all of his top administration pics, and Wall Street, he is surrounded by Jewish people, and so is our Congress.
His hands is tied, he wouldn't dear, you can't cut off the hand that feeds you
Weeza
Zanubiyah
However, notice that people like us, people the Israelis cant harm are asking the question, and contstanly bringing it up. I think I have said this many times in my posts, this is the war Israel is not equipped to fight. I am sure that AIPAC and other Jewish lobby groups felt chills going thorough thier spines that a person would dare ask that question in public. In these hard econimic times, asking the question in the frame of 'our tax money' drives the question right into most American homes as we look around, seeing our public safety institutions and school, suffering from lack of funds.
[Edited for space.]
His hands is tied, he wouldn't dear, you can't cut off the hand that feeds you
Weeza
He should have been truthful and said
In this country if anyone dares speak against Israel they are automatically labeled Anti-Semitic
qdog112
In this country if anyone dares speak against Israel they are automatically labeled Anti-Semitic
qdog112
What does Israel have for us other than a place for us to send our tax money??? [On its own this comment isn't too inflammatory. However, it was spammed about eight times.]
MarcEdward
nukemind
MarcEdward
Israel isn't the only Democracy in the region. Lebanon has had a democracy for many years. When you practice propaganda, you should use factual propaganda.
I always hear about how the Israelis are so smart that they "made a desert bloom" (with Palestinian labor!), so if they are so smart and successful, what do they need MY MONEY for? What does the USA get for the $4 billion we flush to them annually? Why should the USA fund any country who's national policy is based on ethnic and religious cleansing?Apartheid does not equal a true democracy. Well, if the Pals are such a problem why did Egypt and Jordan give up their animosity when Israel gave their territory and signed treaties with them? That tune you're playing is an old and unconvincing one.
Zanubiyah
Well, there are 2 answers to why Obama didnt answer directly.
One can be simply that "The pot cant call the kettle black." The other is the Israeli lobby would destroy his career.However, notice that people like us, people the Israelis cant harm are asking the question, and contstanly bringing it up. I think I have said this many times in my posts, this is the war Israel is not equipped to fight. I am sure that AIPAC and other Jewish lobby groups felt chills going thorough thier spines that a person would dare ask that question in public. In these hard econimic times, asking the question in the frame of 'our tax money' drives the question right into most American homes as we look around, seeing our public safety institutions and school, suffering from lack of funds.
[Edited for space.]
Javagold
KingBatguano
hacksaw because Israel runs the USA
KingBatguano
[deleted] Because Bernanke , Greenspan , Volker and the money boys are for the most part Jewish . I am not anti semitic . In fact , my best friend in High School , my room mate at the University , and the best man at my wedding were Jewish . Still , I urge everyone to read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion . Perhaps it was not of Jewish origin , but it was without doubt written by SOME group of International Bankers with designs on Global enslavement of the masses .
fifteen pounds
fifteen pounds
There is no reason for Americans to subsidize Israel with billions each year. They have direct access to many of the worlds wealthiest and some live there, as well....To call Israel " a true democracy" is a joke...it is a theocracy based upon a racist and discriminatory belief based upon a book that may or may not have been written by "god"....We are all sorry about what happened to Jews in the past....but, they are doing to others what they had done to them...2 wrongs do not make a right...This conflict will only resolve itself when Zionism is rejected by Jews as the poisonous doctrine it is.....if it is not, mere demographics in that area will mean that Jews, and Zionists, will become a distinct minority in their own self proclaimed state.....what happens then? After all, it is a true democracry, right? Suppose the majority, 20 years from now, decides and votes to end Jewish favoritism in Israel....you will accept that?
basenji
basenji
What exactly makes Israel a Democracy? Their legalized discrimination? Their extreme racism? I would like to see a politician answer the question with SPECIFICS as to what is it that makes Israel our 'Best Ally'. Pure nonsense regurgitated by spineless politicians enslaved by the 'pro-Israel' money.
Luschnig
The harsh treatment of the Palestinians by Israel is undeniable, despite the fact that there are those who seek to excuse it on the grounds of protecting the nation of Israel. However, I believe that the way Palestinians are being treated now far from protecting Jews endangers them. I am not talking about an anti-Semitic backlash which is negligible compared to the moral degradation that is engendered by brutishness which will inevitably rot the soul of Judaism.
Bluebloodsbastardson
Bluebloodsbastardson
The Hagganah (sp?) was a pioneer in the field of terrorist organizations, the SS had some serious challenges in supremacy for ruthlessness and barbarism from them. Underscoring the value of effective propaganda & PR. I hope the moderators have enough integrity to let this post stand btw .
He should have said we don’t condemn them because A I PAC has a grip on both houses and Jews vote in large numbers and contribute large amounts of cash during elections so Palestinians don’t count when it comes to human rights
Bluebloodsbastardson
Has it ever remotely registered in your Zionist brain that the Jews' homeland is the planet Earth, just like everybody else's and it was meant by your Creator to be shared by all?
And that there are no such an entity as the Chosen Ones, that would exclude any member of the Human Race, that would be a creation of His?I'll guess most likely not and as long as that situation is permitted to exist by you, you nor your "people" will ever know a moment of peace, which is probably exactly the way you want it to be. Wear it well amigo. Your approach fails IMO and needs to go back to the drawing board, likely to never happen without Divine Intervention.
Henk
Simple Mossad, they have a very long reach.
nicainmiami
Why doesn't the U.S. question or condemn Israel's human rights violations? Because a slave does not question its master. [Response: "Fanned"]
Countess
Obama is terrified of offending the powerful Israeli lobby many of whom give loads of money to the democrats.
Thelonius
Thelonius
As we are funding Israel and protecting it from international sanctions at the UN, we have every right to condemn its very well documented litany of crimes against humanity and war crimes. For just a brief glimpse, see the Goldstone Report, which despite unending attacks, an army of pro-Israel advocates has not been able to even dent.
Anntink
[deleted] What would you have him do? Point out that a large percentage of the U.S. Congress is also citizens of Israel? That would win him friends, how?
Mikeeee
Mikeeee
I applaud the girls courage. The answer is simple although not PC. The reality is that anyone who isn't sycophantic towards Israel and doesn't turn a blind eye to it's human rights abuses is automatically labeled antisemitic.
DimBulb2
and lieberman [Click for context. Claiming that Israel "sent" Joe.]
lbsaltzman
Why doesn't Obama Criticize Israeli human rights abuse, it is because almost no politician has the courage to stand up to the pro-Israeli lobby.
kkrimmer
If the US occupied Mexico and Mexico resisted and the US killed those resisters calling them terrorists... Who has a better chance of deciding if there is peace, the US or Mexico?
Israeli zionists do not want peace.
hemara
The last peace of any significance was 30 years ago with Jimmy Carter.
In 30 years they couldn't work out peace? If the US occupied Mexico and Mexico resisted and the US killed those resisters calling them terrorists... Who has a better chance of deciding if there is peace, the US or Mexico?
Israeli zionists do not want peace.
hemara
Nice of him also to mention Palestinian violence awhile turning blind eye to how aggressive and violent Israel is.
That young lady obviously hasn't had the correct sort of indoctrination...better tweak that public school curriculum to include a few more trips to the holocaust museum. NEVER question Israel or Jewish involvement in the commanding heights.
nyckid
Palestine belongs to the Palestinians.
HuffPoWatch: Ayatollah Ali Khamenei Predicts Israel's Destruction
Yesterday an article was published about the Supreme Leader of Iran's latest prediction that Israel will be destroyed. Of course, the words that he actually used were "the Zionist regime" rather than naming Israel by name. This prompted some defenders of the Ayatollah to claim that he was really misquoted and that he really didn't want Israel's people dead and it's Jewish character annihilated. They also claim that he didn't call for Israel's destruction, he just thought that Israel would eventually be destroyed. Passive voice. I feel like this argument lacks validity for two reasons:
1) How can you separate Zionism from Israel? Every Israeli who feels that Israel should be a Jewish state is a Zionist, therefore any government could be called a "regime." Just because the Ayatollah doesn't say the word "Israel" some take it to mean he doesn't mean Israel, the Jewish state. Well, what does he mean?
2) If you look at the Hamas charter, they don't say that they are going to be the ones to destroy Israel either. They just say that "Islam" will eventually destroy Israel. And yet, as soon as Hamas got the chance, they attacked Israel, intending to do their best to destroy it. They have continued ever since. The double talk has been used before, it's not going to fool me again.
It's also interesting to note that quite a few of the posters who are virulently anti-Israel now come out in this thread to defend Iran and it's leadership, most notably "Richard Pearce," "hemara" and "Rachel Brownlee." You can check out the thread and see for yourself.
Before I get to the comments on the fully moderated, though, I felt I needed to share this one. It was addressed to a new poster who made a pro-Israel comment:
Here's a screencap in case it gets deleted:
This is pretty sick stuff, even for the Huffington Post. But of course, this is just legitimate criticism of Israel, right?
S1m0n
Richard Pearce
Freenation
Rachel Brownlee
I'll give you a hint - it's called 'objectivity'!
Of course, you won't get paid for it!
Rachel Brownlee
nyckid
RasKesar
jabidi
[Anti-Israel spam]
kentah
hemara
hemara
hemara
kentah
1) How can you separate Zionism from Israel? Every Israeli who feels that Israel should be a Jewish state is a Zionist, therefore any government could be called a "regime." Just because the Ayatollah doesn't say the word "Israel" some take it to mean he doesn't mean Israel, the Jewish state. Well, what does he mean?
2) If you look at the Hamas charter, they don't say that they are going to be the ones to destroy Israel either. They just say that "Islam" will eventually destroy Israel. And yet, as soon as Hamas got the chance, they attacked Israel, intending to do their best to destroy it. They have continued ever since. The double talk has been used before, it's not going to fool me again.
It's also interesting to note that quite a few of the posters who are virulently anti-Israel now come out in this thread to defend Iran and it's leadership, most notably "Richard Pearce," "hemara" and "Rachel Brownlee." You can check out the thread and see for yourself.
Before I get to the comments on the fully moderated, though, I felt I needed to share this one. It was addressed to a new poster who made a pro-Israel comment:
dem 01And then we had this follow-up:
Excpet the US of A you do not have any friend !
... and you know what ...
The empire is dying.... and you know what...
The Ar...abs are going to eat you alive.
Rachel Brownlee
...with fries!
Here's a screencap in case it gets deleted:
This is pretty sick stuff, even for the Huffington Post. But of course, this is just legitimate criticism of Israel, right?
S1m0n
Khameni predicted the end of Zionism, not of Israel.
And he's undoubtedly correct: a national raison d'etre founded on race in a land with a pluralistic population is incurably unstable, and cannot last. However, Khameni's own regime will be long gone before this comes to pass. He would be wise to hold off on the gloating.Richard Pearce
It was interesting to see how Israel tried to chekov the world's response (including the Muslim world's response) to the Haitian earthquake disaster (there have been several disasters in Haiti over the past few decades, more of them the result of the policies of foreing governments than natural disasters), and then claim it was the victim of hatred when people pushed back at that.
[I think he's saying here that Israel is trying to stifle news about other nations helping Haiti. But if you read the Haiti threads, you will see that the AZs there were far from "pushing back."]
Rachel Brownlee
jabidi
[I think he's saying here that Israel is trying to stifle news about other nations helping Haiti. But if you read the Haiti threads, you will see that the AZs there were far from "pushing back."]
Rachel Brownlee
Israel cannot continue to antaganise it neighbours without reaping a savage harvest.
This doesn't mean Israels dissolution it just means peaceful concessions within international law.jabidi
Right out of Israeli Global Language Handbook:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/206021
http://www.newsweek.com/id/206021
Freenation
parsi try reading this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/israel-foreign-ministry-media
[Usual Freenation spam. If you read the thread, you'll see how *extremely* off topic it is.]http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/israel-foreign-ministry-media
Rachel Brownlee
But Israel is - yea right!
That you can so easily see problems in other countries and yet are so blind to those in your own is something that you should work on.I'll give you a hint - it's called 'objectivity'!
Of course, you won't get paid for it!
Rachel Brownlee
Kinda like Israel sending aid to Haiti while opening the floodgates of the dam above the Valley of Gaza and flooding the inhabitants. [In the subsequent thread, she was unable to back up this obvious lie. However, if you read the thread, notice other anti-Zionists who will believe it without question.]
Zanubiyah
It was the arrogance of the bigots of South Africa that destroyed apartied. It will be the arrogance of the Zionists that will destroy Israel...not Islam, not the Palistinians, and not Iran...but the ideology of Zionists. [His slip up: Failing to refer to Israel as "the Zionist regime," like the Ayatollah did. Notice the use of "Zionists"]
Zanubiyah
No matter who speaks the truth, it is the truth. Do not attack the man, for we all know who he is. The article is about what he said. It seems Zionists have a hard time refuting his words, so they attack his charater.
Zionists tend to do that. However, it gets to be a badge of honour after a while to be demeaned by Zionists, just as the bigots did in South Africa, now the man is a hero to his people, and to the world.It was the arrogance of the bigots of South Africa that destroyed apartied. It will be the arrogance of the Zionists that will destroy Israel...not Islam, not the Palistinians, and not Iran...but the ideology of Zionists. [His slip up: Failing to refer to Israel as "the Zionist regime," like the Ayatollah did. Notice the use of "Zionists"]
nyckid
Palestine belongs to the Palestinians.
RasKesar
[In response to, "What belongs to the Israelis?"]
Eastern Europe
Eastern Europe
jabidi
"Zionism for Dummies"
http://palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=15406kentah
Stating that "only those who hate Israel and her people would agree with you" is a false declaration. Zionism as a concept has displaced so many, killed so many, taken the land and destroyed the culture of so many, that it will inevitably consume itself in its own paranoia. [Translation: Israel has no right to exist, and should it be destroyed, that would be a good thing.] There's a large contingent in not only Israel and the Jewish diaspora but non-Jews as well that believe pretty much that--the concept itself is not Judaism but uses Judaism as a carrier wave to function. Zionism is a form of nationalism based on religion and ethnicity spawned in Europe and transplanted to the Middle East.
hemara
"especially today."
Please, spare us the emotional blackmail.
Whatever lessons Israel learned from the holocaust weren't to do with human rights.
Please, spare us the emotional blackmail.
Whatever lessons Israel learned from the holocaust weren't to do with human rights.
hemara
I know Palestinians in the UAE working in white collar jobs.
The last time I checked it wasn't arabs or muslims refusing to recognise refugee rights, illegally occupying Palestinian land and acting "to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger", as Dov Weisglass so delicately described the open air prison that is Gaza.
Israel is the victor in the oppression stakes, overwhelming.
The last time I checked it wasn't arabs or muslims refusing to recognise refugee rights, illegally occupying Palestinian land and acting "to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger", as Dov Weisglass so delicately described the open air prison that is Gaza.
Israel is the victor in the oppression stakes, overwhelming.
hemara
In the interests of fairness you will include the Knesset and IDF for good measure [in a list of terrorists include Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad]? In the name of maintaining an illegal occupation, they manage to outclass Hamas et al in the killing of civilians several times over.
kentah
Exactly. How many of these al qaeda end up being Mossad, CIA, or affiliated somehow with the ADL? How many documents have been forged supposedly speaking to nefarious Iranian secret plans at world domination or whatever they're claiming? 2 tons of explosives went missing from a company in Vancouver the other day, two guesses on where and how it'll turn up and who will be blamed, actually one guess.
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The defenders of Israel have shown that they are indifferent to the condition of the Palestinian people. Why would further destruction of Palestinian life be a problem to these people?
Perhaps you should focus on a solution to the things that would make people want to blow themselves up in the first place. But no, the iron fist of authoritarianism will always be easier for you simpletons.